The Faith of the Armor Bearer: Insights from Mike Dsane

Mike Dsane
00:00:00.320 - 00:00:19.485
That's where this crazy faith starts happening, Right. Once we're between the two of them, perhaps God will save. Usually when you're a leader, like people define leadership as you know what to do next.

But he doesn't know that the Lord called him to do that. That's one thing if it's like, maybe we should launch a new ministry, it's another thing when your life is on the line.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:00:26.425 - 00:01:55.367
Welcome to the second season of Eternal Impact. I'm your host, Aaron Matthew Kaiser.

And if you're new here, the purpose of this podcast is to bring biblical stories to life so we can see how they change lives. Today, when we study scripture, we can often get a sense of the personalities and emotions of the people that have been written about.

Sometimes who they are intersects with who we are, and we begin to relate to scripture in a whole new way. Last season, we took a look at the suffering of Joseph and how God meant it for good.

The parable of the Sower, the failures and faithfulness of John, Mark, and the courage of Queen Esther. All this through the eyes of our amazing guests.

This season, we continue our journey into the stories of the Bible with new guests and new topics that I am excited to share with you. First up is Mike Johnny, pastor of Kings Harbor Church in Torrance.

You'll hear about his upbringing as the son of Immigran from Ghana and how that has affected his approach to pastoring a multiethnic church and how that differs from being a multicultural church.

Then we dive into the Scriptures to 1 Samuel, where King Saul's son Jonathan took his armor bearer to face the Philistines with only a single sword between the two of them. Before you say you know where this story is going, you may be as surprised as I was at who our focal character is.

Anyway, it's time to get started, so let's jump on right into it.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:01:55.471 - 00:01:59.535
Mike, I want to thank you for coming onto this episode of Eternal Impact.

Mike Dsane
00:01:59.615 - 00:02:03.927
Aaron, what a privilege to be invited to be a part of it and excited to just share what the Lord's doing.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:02:03.991 - 00:02:12.119
I think this is going to be an exciting episode, especially with where you told me that we're going to go. So you're born in Oklahoma.

Mike Dsane
00:02:12.207 - 00:02:12.687
Yes.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:02:12.791 - 00:02:17.095
But according to your site, you were the youngest member of an immigrant family.

Mike Dsane
00:02:17.175 - 00:02:46.579
Yes. So even my last name. Right. Doesn't look like you're. It doesn't look like Smith. And so my family's from Ghana, West Africa.

My parents came to the states early 70s, mid-70s, and my middle sister was born here. My Oldest sister was born in Ghana, then they went back to Ghana for a few years and then moved to Oklahoma.

And I've asked my mom a lot of times, why did you guys move to Oklahoma? And her response is, I don't know why your dad did that to me. But there's actually a really strong community from Ghana in Oklahoma City.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:02:46.667 - 00:02:47.027
Okay.

Mike Dsane
00:02:47.091 - 00:03:36.197
So it was like, while we're not home, it's like a home away from home. And so I was born there, grew up there until I was 25, raised in the church. My mom had a really strong faith. My dad came to faith after I was born.

But the partnership of them both loving the Lord really kind of created a home where it's like, okay, this is normative. And yeah, I had seasons of straying, but really always had a strong affection for the Lord and the church.

So when I got to the age where I was like, I feel like I'm called to ministry, like, nobody was shocked. Everybody was like, that makes sense. So was in ministry.

Formally started being in ministry at 22 years old and then from 22 to 25, worked at a church in Oklahoma City and then moved to Dallas. And I'm sure there's more questions to come, so I don't want to tell my whole story one shot.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:03:36.301 - 00:03:48.485
Well, before getting into ministry, what, even though you kind of grew up in the church, what was that moment where the Holy Spirit and Christ drew you personally to all?

Mike Dsane
00:03:48.525 - 00:04:10.697
Yeah, yeah. So I was 8. And there's an old. I don't know if it's a hymn, maybe it was contemporary worship back then, but now it just feels old. Song Majesty.

Worship is majesty. Jesus who died now crucified King of all kings.

And I can remember sitting next to my mom in church, we were singing that, and I looked over at her and said, wait a minute, he died for me. And so then it was just this moment where, you know, I'm actually feeling.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:04:10.721 - 00:04:12.465
Goosebumps right now just listening to that.

Mike Dsane
00:04:12.545 - 00:05:09.239
And so like, I've got a four year old and a one year old and I'm like, if my kids looked at me and said that in church, I'd be like, all bells would go off. Like, I'd probably do some backflips, probably also pull a hamstring, try to do some backflips.

But it would be this moment of, okay, this is significant. How do I steward it? And so my mom just led it well and said, okay, you know what that means? What is that? But why are you telling me that?

And so she just Walked me through this is what it means to follow Jesus. And then I think at the end of that service, it was an opportunity to go up front and be prayed for. And I went. And that started the journey.

I mentioned straying not too long thereafter. So probably around 11, had a pastor that said, hey, I think the Lord's gonna use you in ministry. I think you're gonna be a pastor when you get older.

And it freaked me out. And so I tried to run from it. And the way I tried to run from it was try to, like, disqualify myself.

So it's like, what kind of sin can I get into now? At 11, you can't drive. Back then, you couldn't have your own cell phone.

So, like, there wasn't a lot that I could do without my parents, like, putting some guardrails around it. But, like, my heart was trying to be rebellious.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:05:09.327 - 00:05:13.023
It's like if in the Simpsons, the Flanders kids decided to disobey.

Mike Dsane
00:05:13.119 - 00:05:13.615
That's right.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:05:13.695 - 00:05:14.775
Like, oh, darn.

Mike Dsane
00:05:14.815 - 00:05:15.359
Yeah, that's right.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:05:15.407 - 00:05:16.647
I'm going to hell for that.

Mike Dsane
00:05:16.791 - 00:06:04.275
That's exactly right. And so that dynamic was like, I'm still in church every Sunday, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this.

Around 13, my parents changed churches. They were just. They wanted us to be in a place that had a healthy student ministry, had some really healthy context for theological development.

And I'm like, I can't stand this. And there was an older gentleman in the church that was like, hey, we've got a media ministry. Do you want to run a camera for me?

And so in my mind, I'm like, I get to play on a camera. I don't have to pay attention to the sermon, as opposed to. I actually have to pay that much more attention.

And from 13 to 18, did that really dialed me in, really grew me, because it really had me focused on serving and hearing the word. And, yeah, just off to the races from there. And then my second year in college felt like the Lord strongly called me to ministry.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:06:04.655 - 00:06:19.395
Now that you're in ministry and you're leading this church, is there something that you always try to impart when you're teaching? I'm seeing a lot of boxes of tissues. Do people cry during your sermons a lot?

Mike Dsane
00:06:22.375 - 00:07:21.205
I hope that's an interesting question. So I think I do want to hit the head and the heart man. I want to be theologically robust, but I want to be spirit driven.

You know, I have a friend who says, a Word and truth. Yeah. Or spirit and truth. And. Yeah, I want spirit and truth. And so to that end, I mean, I think people do cry, but I hope they also laugh.

I hope they also feel like, oh, yeah, the Lord sees me in a really unique way, I think. And some of my family story has to do with this. Between being immigrants.

I'm going to say something that I'm not going to explain, but my dad had a significant illness during my childhood.

There is this seeing the faithfulness of the Lord in the midst of suffering that has become really a clear part of what the Lord has called me to teach and lead through. And then thinking about just what does it mean to be part of the kingdom of God?

I think if I can help people understand those two things, well, man, I feel like I've satisfied my call.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:07:21.335 - 00:07:40.617
I can kind of relate with, you know, parent having an illness. My mom had juvenile rheumatoid arthritis since she was 5. And so when I was younger, it was pretty healthy.

And then it progressed rapidly near the end of her life. But I gave the message at her memorial service.

Mike Dsane
00:07:40.681 - 00:07:41.281
Oh, wow.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:07:41.393 - 00:08:27.305
And it was the fact that she didn't use her illness as her identity. Her identity was in Christ throughout it all. And the faithfulness that she had.

Never blaming God, never questioning God, continuing to pray for family members that maybe she couldn't even talk to about the gospel anymore. And then having joyful victories with her as family members, one by one were getting saved.

And I remember having just these joyous victories with her, just like, hey, someone got saved. And even when I was younger, I was like, yeah, okay. And then older, it's like, that's a big deal. That's a really big deal.

When someone that you love, maybe not, like, because they're family, but you love.

Mike Dsane
00:08:28.565 - 00:08:29.613
Tell the truth now.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:08:29.669 - 00:08:41.693
Yeah. But they get saved. And, you know, it's like, I just want to see you in heaven. And now it's like, you appreciate that. So.

Yeah, I can kind of associate with that a little bit.

Mike Dsane
00:08:41.749 - 00:08:48.845
Yeah. It's something about the people who know you the best sometimes make it the hardest to share your faith with. Right.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:08:49.005 - 00:09:02.237
And so especially because we've been the most human, like, we have messed up. Like, we're on our best behavior with other people, but maybe we're more apt to be what's under the surface with those that, you know.

Mike Dsane
00:09:02.301 - 00:09:14.723
Yeah. But then think about your mom's story, right?

Like, if them seeing the most clear view of her pain and her trusting the Lord in it, like, how powerful that is, man. That's awesome. So I wish I got to meet your mom.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:09:14.899 - 00:09:24.867
I want to talk about your work here at Kings Harbor Church. We're in your main sanctuary right now. This is a beautiful building in Torrance.

Mike Dsane
00:09:24.971 - 00:10:08.231
So I've been here for just about five years, a little over actually. And this is a church that was well loved in the community, served the community well. Thank you for the compliment about our building.

It's kind of like your house, right. When somebody comes over and visits, you're like, oh, did anybody see the stuff in the corner that we didn't have to watch the baseboards?

And so it's always nice to be encouraged in that way. Yeah.

It's been a fun journey of watching a church that had such a rich history at the same time have to go through some hard leadership transitions and try and preserve the things that were really good from their DNA, but then at the same time grow in ways that we needed to. And so that's been a five year journey of learning how to honor and elevate what's good and then change and grow from what's been difficult.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:10:08.343 - 00:10:16.181
What would you say are some of the things that your church does that's maybe different from other churches?

Mike Dsane
00:10:16.293 - 00:10:54.049
I think one of the things that's really beautiful about our church and maybe other churches do it, but I don't know that it's been so central in other churches that I've been a part of is just the love for kids who are in foster care.

That's something that has just been from a ministry called Royal Family Kids that we've served in for nearly two decades to families out of that who have adopted kids to. This past summer we, we started a teen version of what we're doing with the Royal Family Kids mentoring clubs.

Like, there's just so much and so much energy for our church around that. It's been really unique and beautiful.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:10:54.137 - 00:10:58.609
And is that because there's a particularly large need in this community?

Mike Dsane
00:10:58.737 - 00:11:24.159
Yeah. They say the amount of foster kids in the LA county foster care system is larger than anywhere else in the nation.

And so that began to beat on the heart 20 years ago. I think when the church heard that and was like, okay, how do we not just know that, but how do we address it and enter into it? And it's become this.

Not like, oh, that was cool, we're going to do now we're going to do something else. Has been like, no, we're called to this. And how do we keep making an impact in this space?

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:11:24.287 - 00:11:28.943
Do you kind of do this through like the foster parents, do you have strong partnerships with them?

Mike Dsane
00:11:29.079 - 00:12:16.871
Usually when kids get to the mentoring stage because that's every month our team is hanging out with these kids here for a kind of like a vacation, Bible school on a Saturday if you will, sidewalk Sunday school. But these mentors are also interacting with these kids lives so going to their games, taking them to fun events throughout the week.

And so all of that creates this really good relationship with the foster parents. Now we recognize in some situations foster parents are a temporary grace before a kid goes back home and we hope that that can happen.

And other times it's fostering to adopt. And so some of that is learning to how do you walk through a family that's navigating that? Because there's all types of dynamics and challenges.

So it's been, yeah, it's been eye opening for me. I entered into it, it already existed when I got here. But it's been something that's just really special about our DNA.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:12:16.943 - 00:12:31.519
I mean I've seen friends that were fostering, hoping to adopt and then it didn't happen. And they even had, it was hardship going through that because they felt like they lost someone that was starting to become part of their family.

Mike Dsane
00:12:31.567 - 00:12:57.033
Absolutely. Yeah. It can be crushing. And that has happened even here recently with a few families.

And they've been through it before, like they've adopted before or you know, been close to seeing other people go through that. They knew that it could be, could be a potential.

But it's still when you put that much of your heart into loving someone and then they're not gonna be a part of your home permanently, it has a crushing impact.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:12:57.169 - 00:13:02.055
What's kind of the size and the makeup of your church is a pretty diverse.

Mike Dsane
00:13:03.955 - 00:13:21.015
Again kind of like when somebody comes to your house like oh no. So I think it is because the community is between white, Asian, Latino, African American.

You walk into any public place in Torrance and you're going to see every culture.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:13:21.355 - 00:13:36.463
I feel like Torrance is this interesting place in LA too where it's nice but it's still close to some of the rougher areas. And so it's kind of, it's almost like a melting pot within the melting pot within the melting pot of America.

Mike Dsane
00:13:36.519 - 00:13:42.071
Yeah, that's right. So like Dalama Mall, which is like the, I think the third or fourth biggest mall in America.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:13:42.183 - 00:13:42.995
Oh wow.

Mike Dsane
00:13:43.375 - 00:14:54.183
It is really strange because you've got like Burberry and Burlington Coat Factory in the same mall and usually like when you have a really high end mall you don't have lower end stuff. But, like, it was interesting. Like, when we first moved here, we were, like, a little confused because those two things were so close to each other.

But in the same way, I think culturally, like, Torrance is kind of the belly button of. You got Manhattan beach, which is one of the wealthiest communities in the United States.

This is where Wilt Chamberlain back in the day, used to walk the beaches and play volleyball. And then at the same time, you've got communities like Wilmington, which are.

If you drive under the bridge to go to Wilmington, you'll see an unhoused community there that is just like. It's the type of things that end up on news stories. And both of those communities converge in torrents because they need to go to Target. Right.

So, like, there's just this strange overlap of communities that creates a diversity here. But at the same time, I wish our church was more right. Like, you know, there's a difference between multiethnic and multicultural.

I think we are multiethnic in the fact that you walk into a room and there's multiple ethnicities. We're multiethnic at this table.

But multicultural means that there's recognition, space, acceptance, embracing, and desire for other cultures to be represented. We're not there yet.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:14:54.239 - 00:14:58.031
The different cultures don't even need to be different ethnicities.

Mike Dsane
00:14:58.143 - 00:15:16.855
That's right. It could be socioeconomic culture. It could be. It could be so many different things.

But, yeah, having the ability to say we see value in the fact that the Lord has wired you and built you to be that specific culture, how do we learn from that and see his beauty in it? Man, I long for that to be so true of us.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:15:16.935 - 00:15:27.111
It's a distinction that I hadn't really quite put together like that before that I appreciate. Your website says that you have a natural inclination to compete.

Mike Dsane
00:15:27.303 - 00:15:44.655
I do. I do. If it can be competed at, I'll probably try and find a way to do it. That's not true.

There's certain things that I'm just like, I know I'm not good at that. Good at that. So I'm not gonna compete. But if I feel like I have some kind of aptitude and competition can be had, I'm gonna compete.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:15:44.815 - 00:15:48.355
What are some of the ways that you do try to prove yourself better than others?

Mike Dsane
00:15:48.815 - 00:15:50.383
I love to win at board games.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:15:50.479 - 00:15:50.943
Okay.

Mike Dsane
00:15:51.039 - 00:16:21.835
And the fact this is a thing in our family, because my wife is also competitive, particularly at board games. And so it's usually better for everybody if we're on the same. You know, I Love sports, particularly basketball.

If I were taller and better at basketball, I would have played in the NBA. I have to start saying that past tense now, because I think I'm old enough that I couldn't play anymore. But, yeah, so love sports. I don't know.

I mean, like, you name something. Like in youth group, if kids are throwing marshmallows in their mouth across the room, I'm jumping in and trying to do that.

So, yeah, I just love a good competition.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:16:21.915 - 00:16:31.065
Was this in a way that, like, while you were younger, it was a hindrance to your walk and that now you've been able to kind of make it a little bit more balanced?

Mike Dsane
00:16:31.225 - 00:17:18.321
Sure. Yeah. I had some really uncontained emotions. I was the kid, and so my middle sister, Rachel, she's six years older than me.

My oldest sister Dorian's 12 years older than me. So Dorian was more of a nurturer and a mother, and Rachel was more of an instigator.

And so we'd be like, playing Monopoly, and she'd just be working me on Monopoly, and I would lose my mind and flip the board and get angry and in tears, and it was just this really sinful, uncontained level of emotion where now as I'm older, like, even just thinking about my role, like, I do have to say to myself, sometimes it's not worth the trash talk or the attempt to win mentally, to win physically, to lose the credibility of leading people. Like, I can steward my words. Like, everything I say is important not because I'm important, but because of the role the Lord's put me in.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:17:18.353 - 00:17:20.649
So that elevated level of responsibility.

Mike Dsane
00:17:20.737 - 00:17:23.705
Absolutely. That was a good way to summarize that.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:17:23.785 - 00:17:36.284
Well, I feel like I've had to step up my game doing this podcast because I feel even though I'm not a pastor, I'm in a higher level of visibility.

Mike Dsane
00:17:36.404 - 00:17:36.868
Absolutely.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:17:36.916 - 00:17:58.243
Now, and I need to be accountable.

Otherwise, everything I say and every guest I bring on, I could bring shame to if I'm not watching those things and not being in the Word and actually holding myself to the higher standard that I think now I am being held to by God.

Mike Dsane
00:17:58.339 - 00:18:27.507
Absolutely. I had a mentor that used to say, like, leadership is like a pyramid, and the closer you get to the top, the less wiggle room you have.

And so that was this vivid. Oh, that makes so much sense. Right.

So what I could do down here as a kid, you know, just wanting to compete and things I could say and ways that I could respond, like, I don't get to do that here, and I Certainly don't get to do that here. Right. And so, yeah, that elevated level of responsibility and guarding. Thoughts, words, actions, responses. Yeah, it's just big.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:18:27.611 - 00:19:04.015
Yeah.

It's even, you know, going to a party, and it can even be a party with church friends, and there's alcohol there, and someone asks, oh, do you not drink? I'm like, I drink, but nine times out of ten, I choose not to because I know I'm driving soon, or I just know how it affects me.

I am a complete lightweight to begin with. And how I used to use alcohol, I would play up the effects of how it was making me feel to try and get away with stuff.

And so it's like, I just don't want to go there at all. I just want to enjoy my time naturally.

Mike Dsane
00:19:04.095 - 00:19:34.879
Yeah, there's some. And that's what Paul says, Right.

Like, if this is going to cause a brother or sister to stumble, like, you're mindful of that, but then you're also mindful of your own history. So, same way, there's just certain things, like, I don't drink, and not because I think it's sin, but I think because there's a reality.

I don't want to give occasion for somebody to stumble. And there is something about the introduction of alcohol that does affect your judgment.

And I'm like, I don't have the wiggle room to be off in that way. So I know that's not what the, you know, somebody who watches podcast is like, ah, gosh.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:19:34.927 - 00:19:39.991
But, like, I feel like this is a good place to transition into our biblical study.

Mike Dsane
00:19:40.063 - 00:19:40.995
Yeah, that's good.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:19:44.455 - 00:19:48.793
Do you want to tell the audience what we're looking at here?

Mike Dsane
00:19:48.849 - 00:20:03.817
Yeah. So we're gonna be looking at 1st Samuel 14, 1 11, I believe.

And it's the story of Jonathan and his armor bearer going over to the Philistine garrison. And so how much detail you want me to give? Or do you want me to just set the frame and then we'll talk?

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:20:03.881 - 00:20:09.937
Well, let's set the frame. So Jonathan is the son of Saul, the first king of Israel.

Mike Dsane
00:20:10.001 - 00:20:40.709
Yeah. So Jonathan's son of Saul, first king of Israel. And they're under siege, essentially trying to push back the Philistines.

This is just before David and Golia, and they have gotten to a point where it's so bad that they have two swords, one for Saul, one for Jonathan. And they're kind of at this stuck point where, okay, Lord, what are you going to do? How are we going to win this battle?

And Jonathan decides, okay, I think The Lord's calling me to do something. And that's where chapter 14 drops us in. Is Jonathan taking this initiative and how that goes down.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:20:40.797 - 00:20:50.671
I kind of see a parallel between your desire to compete and be better and this passage is that there.

Mike Dsane
00:20:50.743 - 00:20:55.447
So, interesting thing, part of why I love this passage is less about Jonathan and more about the armor bearer.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:20:55.511 - 00:20:56.079
Okay.

Mike Dsane
00:20:56.207 - 00:21:55.345
Because if there's one sword between two guys and it's your job to give the guy that's more important, the sword, that means you've got this kind of crazy loyalty and this crazy willingness to serve that probably most people don't operate in naturally. When I moved from Oklahoma to Dallas, the lead pastor that was there, he's my mentor to this day. His name is Brian Jarrett.

He's the one with the pyramid analogy. If I say something good, I probably got it from him.

And when I went, I bought, like, this big old Braveheart claymore sword because I was going to serve there as an intern. And I just said, hey, like Jonathan's armor bearer, I want to serve you in this way.

That's significant to me because I think a lot of times, particularly in ministry leadership, people want to be seen and be served before they want to serve and be under somebody else's vision and leadership. And so that was a really valuable lesson for me.

So, yes, the competition part is there, the competitive boldness, but there's also this man, there's this humility and this service there that I really love.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:21:55.425 - 00:22:29.841
All right, so let's go ahead and dive into the scripture. This is 1 Samuel 14. I'm reading from the Legacy Standard Bible now.

The day came that Jonathan, the son of Saul, said to the young man who was carrying his armor, come and let us cross over to the Philistines garrison that is on the other side. But he did not tell his father. And Saul was staying in the outskirts of Gibeah under the pomegranate tree, which is in Megaron.

And the people who were with him were about 600 men. And Ahiya, I probably pronounced that wrong.

Mike Dsane
00:22:29.953 - 00:22:30.585
He don't know.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:22:30.625 - 00:23:10.805
It's all right. And Ahiha, the son of Ahitub, Ichabod's brother, the son of Phinehas, the son of Eli, the priest of Yahweh at Shiloh, was wearing an ephod.

And the people did not know that Jonathan had gone.

Now, between the passes by which Jonathan sought to cross over to the Philistines garrison, there was a sharp crag on one side and a sharp crag on the other side, and the Name of one was Bozez, and the name of the other, Sena, the one crag rose on the north opposite Michmash, and the other on the south opposite Geba. So there's a lot of detail here about what the landscape looks like.

Mike Dsane
00:23:10.885 - 00:23:58.837
So I do think it's good to think through. So, like, that you get this little lineage from Eli to Phineas, you know, to Ahasha, like, all of that.

And what's important to know is, like, Eli is the guy before Samuel, and Samuel's hearing from the Lord, Eli's not anymore. His sons aren't. His sons are unfaithful.

And so it's like this lineage, and you're actually seeing, like, two lineages at the same time in a similar way.

You got Saul, who's a dad who's not entering in, and you're going to see later on he's kind of got this pattern of hiding when he's supposed to be leading. And you've got his son, like a generation doing something different.

So it's interesting the dynamics that the author is trying to set up with what's going on with the family, while at the same time giving you a sense of the terrain of, like, okay, this is why this conversation made sense. So, yeah.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:23:58.941 - 00:24:14.247
Verse six. Then Jonathan said to the young man who was carrying his armor, come and let us cross over the garrison of these uncircumcised.

Perhaps Yahweh will work for us. For Yahweh is not restrained to save by many or by few.

Mike Dsane
00:24:14.421 - 00:25:25.735
Yeah, so that's where this crazy faith starts happening, right? So he says to one guy, one sword between the two of them, hey, we're gonna go over there and we're gonna engage this battle.

And his statement is, perhaps God will save, whether by many or a few. And it's like, usually when you're a leader, people define leadership as, you know, what to do next.

And he certainly has an idea of what to do next, but he doesn't know that the Lord called him to do that. Like, he's saying, like, maybe this is God's plan. Maybe it's not. Like, that's one thing.

If it's like, you know, maybe we should launch a new ministry. It's another thing when your life is on the line.

And yet he has this bold enough faith in what God can do that he's like, I'm gonna try something, and maybe the Lord's in it. And so, like, that type of faith just stirs me. Like, I want to trust the Lord.

That Way I want to hear him at his word and be crazy enough to believe him. And so that's a big reason why this story speaks to me so definitively, is because he's like, man, perhaps the Lord's going to do this.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:25:25.855 - 00:26:56.625
There was a sermon at my main church recently about taking risks, specifically for the kingdom, but in general.

And the scripture reference was different, but I'm reminded of it here because it was all about, you don't know that God is in something until you've taken those initial steps.

And as long as those initial steps are not contradictory to the word of God, there's certain things that you know up front, like, oh, no, God's not in this. Murder someone? No. Go and steal a TV from your neighbor's house. No. I think we can definitively say God does not want you to do that.

But if there's something that you feel called to do, and it does not defy scripture, that sometimes you have to take that step and go, maybe God is in this. And we will take certain steps along the way to find out. And what we will see in the next couple verses is, Jonathan doesn't just rush in there.

He goes, let's start the trek. And then keep going. And then he sets a couple of litmus tests out.

And then as things go the way that he says, okay, if this happens, then we'll go the next step. If this happens, we'll go the next step. And then we see it followed through that way. But this is the very beginning.

You have no idea if God's actually behind him. And it can be so scary because you don't know if you're just jumping off a cliff without a parachute, expecting God to catch you.

Mike Dsane
00:26:56.705 - 00:26:57.553
Yeah, that's right.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:26:57.609 - 00:27:00.721
And sometimes it's like, I didn't tell you to jump off that cliff.

Mike Dsane
00:27:00.793 - 00:27:01.289
Yeah.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:27:01.417 - 00:27:17.349
So it's actually one of the things I was wanting to touch on later is how do we know when it's actually what God wants or not? Are we making a mistake or are we putting our faith in what we think God might be doing?

Mike Dsane
00:27:17.437 - 00:28:09.103
Yeah, and I want to speak here, too. I have a friend who. His name's Will Heath, and he does a lot of leadership training.

And particularly there's a leadership curriculum called the Five Voices. And so it's five different leadership voices. Pioneer, creative, connector, nurturer, guardian. And, like, the pioneer. It's like, what it sounds like.

You're the type of person that's, like, drawn roads on a map that didn't exist before. Like, you have this level of faith and intuition and risk taking, where, like a nurturer or a guardian are probably a little bit more reserved.

And so what I don't want to say is you're only faithful if you're going to take one sword between two people and attack another. But I do think that can be faithfulness. And I think sometimes faithfulness is the.

Let me ask faithful questions about is this the will of the Lord or is this me having bad pizza? And so I think that, like, I want to, I want to.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:28:09.239 - 00:28:11.615
I'm going to blame all my bad decisions on bad pizza.

Mike Dsane
00:28:11.655 - 00:28:39.787
I just, like, you know what, Domino's got me, right?

But I think that the ability to say the Lord can speak to both types of personalities because I think oftentimes in the church we say everybody be a Jonathan. When. Well, no. Samuel, who we talked to earlier, asked questions multiple times before he recognized he was able to say, here I am, send.

So, like, there's this. And the Lord didn't diminish either one. And so I just, yeah, I want to be careful.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:28:39.851 - 00:29:17.549
That's a really good, good, solid. And I think that's definitely something that our audience needs to take home and listen is. Yeah, this.

The entire point of this podcast is to look at the lives of these characters in the Bible and relate to them. But not everyone is going to be a one to one to us.

And that's why each of us tend to have different ones that are our favorites because we do relate a little bit more. I know my challenge is, it's like I say, a little bit of myself here and a little bit of myself here, a little bit myself here.

Although in my episode, my person was John Mark.

Mike Dsane
00:29:17.717 - 00:29:19.181
Oh, yeah, that's fun.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:29:19.333 - 00:30:27.917
From failure to faithful future love that not everyone is going to get the same. And if you're up in a pulpit preaching, everyone be like Paul, everyone be like Peter. Well, even those two individuals were different.

Paul and Barnabas were completely different. Paul and John Mark were completely different. But then even at the end of Paul's life, he recognized that John Mark was faithful. That's right.

And partially because of the mentorship and discipleship that Barnabas gave him. So I think that's a really good, A really good point that we definitely need to put a pin on and think about. Sure, yeah, let's go on. Where were we?

The end of verse six. So going into verse seven.

And his armor bearer said to him, do all that is in your heart turn yourself, and here I am with you according to your heart. I love that because it says in verse one that he's a young man, but he was willing to go into an insane. This is an insane situation with Jonathan.

He trusted probably both Jonathan and God enough to go.

Mike Dsane
00:30:28.021 - 00:31:28.691
Absolutely, yeah. And I want to say from a senior leader standpoint, how life giving that is to have.

And again, I don't ever want it to sound like, well, if you have questions, if you can't say I'm all in from day one, that you're not faithful. But when you are that person, that's like, maybe I see what you see, or maybe I don't see what you see, but I trust that you do see it from the Lord.

Or I trust that you're gonna lead me faithfully to share that encouragement is always really, really helpful. And then I wanna say to young men, it's weird cause it feels like I'm. That makes me the old guy when I say that.

But to be willing in a season to say, I'll serve your vision before I serve mine, I just think that's so helpful and so important. And I'm grateful for the seasons that I got to do that.

I'm grateful for the safety net season of watching somebody else lead closely before I had to do it myself. So, yeah, I love. That's why, again, I just love so much about this text because the relationship between these two men is really, really important.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:31:28.883 - 00:32:11.407
And then Jonathan responded in verse 8, Behold, we will cross over to the men and reveal ourselves to them. If they say to us, wait until we come to you, then we'll stand in our place and not go up to them. But if they say, come up to us, then we will go up.

For Yahweh has given them into our hands, and this shall be the sign to us. So that's what we discussed earlier, that he kind of. They took a step, went into the. I'm guessing this is a valley between the crags.

And then he says, all right, so we're here now. We've taken this first step. And then if God does this or if they say this, then we know God's behind it. If they say something else, God's not in it.

And let's preserve our own lives because we're going to lose.

Mike Dsane
00:32:11.471 - 00:33:25.349
Yeah. What I love about that is oftentimes we think that. That faith doesn't have obstacle. Right?

Like literally his plan is if they say, come on up here, let's fight, then the Lord's in it. And if they say, no, you guys stay there.

If you don't engage the conflict And I think so often the way we think about, okay, if the Lord's really in this, I won't run into conflict.

Or most of the time, because you're doing what the Lord's calling you to do is to bring the kingdom to bear, to reveal the kingdom in places where it's not plainly seen. You're causing change. And when causing change happens, conflict happens.

And so to see that, like, okay, this conflict is actually part of the means of what God wants to do, as opposed to, I should run the other way because he's not in it. Like, again, this is just an insane story because this is terrible military strategy.

Like, if you've got the disadvantage, you want to sneak up on them, but instead he's like, man, we're here. If you call us into the fight, then the Lord's calling us into the fight. If you tell us to wait, then we know we shouldn't do it.

That's not how I would draw this up. But yet there's this faith that says he's in the conflict. And obviously, I'm not looking for fights, but you know what I'm saying?

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:33:25.397 - 00:34:27.967
Well, even on a spiritual warfare level, I mean, doing episodes of this podcast, it's been interesting seeing where there has been spiritual warfare on sometimes a technical level, exporting videos. And then it just. After four or five hours of render, it hangs on a single frame, and then hit the render again. It hangs on it again.

And so one episode titled the Reality of Spiritual Warfare, not only was I having warfare in the recording of it, in the editing of it, it was taking longer. And then finally I got it done, started exporting, and it got out, like, three days late because of technical issues. So there's all these things.

And I've had some people go, you sure God's called you to this? I'm like, if he didn't, I probably wouldn't be having these challenges, these fights.

And, yeah, it's important to note, yes, sometimes the fight is part of the journey.

Mike Dsane
00:34:28.031 - 00:35:01.323
Yeah, I love that. And even to have that spiritual sensitivity to it, not just be, why doesn't this microphone work?

But, like, there are spiritual realities behind technical difficulties. There are spiritual realities behind difficult days. And, you know, and then to say, okay, this is where I learned to exert faith.

We were actually having a staff meeting here yesterday. We were talking about oftentimes we mistake supernatural things for natural things and asking the Lord to help us to not miss when he's at work.

And so, yeah, I love that. I love that admission. And it's so good.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:35:01.379 - 00:35:05.723
I mean, we have to be careful that we're not looking for a demon behind every direction. That's right.

Mike Dsane
00:35:05.739 - 00:35:07.091
If you didn't buy gas, that's on you.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:35:07.163 - 00:35:15.393
Yeah, but we also have to not. We have to not fool ourselves into believing that there is no warfare at all.

Mike Dsane
00:35:15.449 - 00:35:15.881
That's right.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:35:15.953 - 00:35:19.497
If we're not getting attacked, then there's probably something wrong in our lives.

Mike Dsane
00:35:19.561 - 00:35:21.633
Yeah. You video game guy.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:35:21.689 - 00:35:22.017
Yeah.

Mike Dsane
00:35:22.081 - 00:35:23.881
You remember GoldenEye, yo.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:35:23.993 - 00:35:25.801
A long time ago, I was not very good at it.

Mike Dsane
00:35:25.833 - 00:35:46.749
But yes, neither was I. But the reality with GoldenEye is when you played it, if you saw no enemies, you were going the wrong direction. Right.

But when you were going the right direction, there was a constant flood of these kind of regenerating guys that were coming to fight you and take you out. And so there's a reality like the enemy is not wasting a lot of effort on people who are not going the right direction.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:35:46.837 - 00:35:47.277
Right.

Mike Dsane
00:35:47.381 - 00:35:57.973
Like, I already got you going the wrong way. I don't need to dissuade you and make you turn around. But like, when you're doing something for the Lord, there will be conflict.

And that's not all bad.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:35:58.109 - 00:36:01.437
Now, how we respond to that conflict is what's important.

Mike Dsane
00:36:01.541 - 00:36:02.205
That's right.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:36:02.325 - 00:37:04.743
And sometimes we miss that. We'll continue in verse 12 here. Oh, no, no, no, I skipped ahead. We're in verse 11.

So both of them revealed themselves to the garrison of the Philistines. And the Philistines said, behold, Hebrews are coming out of the holes where they have hidden themselves.

So the men of the garrison hailed Jonathan and his armor bearer and said, come up to us and we will make you know something. And Jonathan said to his armor bearer, come up after me, for Yahweh has given them into the hands of Israel.

Then Jonathan climbed up on his hands and feet with his armor bearer behind him. And they fell before Jonathan and his armor bearer put some to death after him.

And that first slaughter which Jonathan and his armor bearer made was about 20 men within about half a furrow in an acre of land. And there was a trembling in the camp, in the field, and among all the people.

Even the garrison and the raiders trembled and the earthquaked so that it became a great trembling.

Mike Dsane
00:37:04.909 - 00:37:20.195
Yeah, Just love the end result. The Lord did what he was believing the Lord would do. The Lord didn't tell him he was going to do it, but he just believed. And the Lord came through.

And I just love that end result. And then I just want to. I want to build a Christ Connection here, too.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:37:20.275 - 00:37:21.259
Okay, Right.

Mike Dsane
00:37:21.307 - 00:38:18.305
So you see Jonathan, the son of a king, going, entering into what's difficult and winning victory. Because this victory is ultimately Saul's victory.

Like, this is a victory for the kingdom, is a victory for Saul's renown, even though Saul's not physically present there. And then you've got this armor bearer who's just willing to follow where the faithful son of the king would lead.

And I just think that's so much of the Christ story. Like, you know, now God is a much better father than Saul is. Right? Right. You know, he's never been found hiding in the baggage.

But though he's not physically present, he has sent the son, and the son is entering in or entered into the conflict, the oppression, the persecution of his day, went through the cross, which seemed like both foolishness and certain death, comes out on the other side alive and victorious. And it's our call to enter into that battle with him.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:38:18.385 - 00:38:27.501
And he also knew when was the time to go into battle and when to. There's even, like, one point where he literally goes invisible and slips through the crowd.

Mike Dsane
00:38:27.593 - 00:38:32.085
Right? Right. Because they're trying to push him off a cliff. Right. Like, and he's just like, you know.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:38:32.205 - 00:38:33.205
They'Re like, where'd he go?

Mike Dsane
00:38:33.245 - 00:39:00.929
Yeah. Disappears his way through. And it's like knowing, okay, this is what the Lord's doing versus what's not.

And obviously, the perfect son, fully God, fully man, obviously has a connection to the father that we are cultivating through the spirit. But, like, just thinking about this kind of quick snapshot of what that looks like and what we're called. We're called to be the armor bearer.

We're called to come along, serve, be part of what he's doing. I just love it.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:39:01.017 - 00:39:18.649
I was not expecting the focus to be the armor bearer. Today. I did all this research.

I was making notes about Jonathan, although I did make that note about the armor bearer being young and still being willing to go into an insane situation, but wasn't expecting him to be the focus today.

Mike Dsane
00:39:18.737 - 00:39:51.861
It's a sweet little nuance. Both are valuable, right? Like, I don't know. I wonder. And these are unanswerable questions, right? Like, if the armor bearer is like.

Like, nah, man, I'm not doing that. What happens? And I also wonder if Jonathan was like, hey, I'm not going to go. Certainly the armor bearer doesn't go.

So there's something about the synergy of them together, though. It's Jonathan with the sword, Jonathan in the lead, but this faithful following that he participates in. That's really, really important.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:39:51.973 - 00:40:06.351
Well, there's one of the thoughts I had, too, was the fact that. That even though.

So from a practical standpoint, they only had the one sword between them, but then even if, like, they were going with a full armor, the armor bearer doesn't usually fight.

Mike Dsane
00:40:06.463 - 00:40:06.999
Right.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:40:07.127 - 00:40:18.399
And it actually says that he got somebody. Yeah. He got to kill a few people as well. And it's just this interesting. Yeah. And his armor bearer put some to death after him.

Mike Dsane
00:40:18.447 - 00:40:18.719
Yeah.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:40:18.767 - 00:40:47.711
It's just this interesting little note that, like, normally you don't get to do it. And it's almost like, okay, you were faithful to follow me.

So I don't know if he picked up one of the Philistine swords and was fighting along with him or if Jonathan's like, here, you get a couple of them. What?

That looked like he's someone that he went in with one job, had got to do another job, got to do a more heroic job and be part of saving Israel from the Philistines in this moment.

Mike Dsane
00:40:47.783 - 00:41:21.085
Yeah. So cool. Yeah, I love that. I haven't even thought about. Oh, yeah. This is not normally what you do.

And yet somehow you get to participate in the part that everybody wants to be a part of, the part that glory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Think about it. Like, I probably should have picked a less intense text to talk through. People are dying in this text.

But, yeah, like, it's cool that he wrote, you know, to use language from Hamilton. He rose above his station and he had the opportunity to be part of the victory, not just a bystander or a spectator to the victory.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:41:25.025 - 00:41:32.129
Are there any application points that our audience can take away from this passage today?

Mike Dsane
00:41:32.217 - 00:42:21.355
Well, I love the question that you posed. How do I know? And this text doesn't give you that answer. But I think there are some things around it.

Like, Jonathan clearly knew that the Lord wanted to push back the evil opposer. Right. Like even that language of the uncircumcised or those who are outside of the covenant.

And so I think there are things that the Lord's clear about in general that you don't have to ask the question, does the Lord want me to share the grace of what he's accomplished with this person? Yes. How he wants you to do that, that's a different conversation. But does he want you to do it? Certainly.

And so I think there are things by the word, the spirit, and the community that you're in that help make those obvious answers clear and then come alongside you to help figure out the how of those things. So I just think that's really important because I think the question you asked was brilliant.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:42:21.435 - 00:42:51.733
And I think also doing it from that staged layout where you don't just. Jonathan didn't just grab his sword and run right into the Philistines. He's like.

Grabbed his armor bearer and then he's like, we're gonna go down there, and then we'll get down there, and then we're gonna call up. And then depending on what they say. So he took those little steps along the way, kind of checking in with God.

And at any point, God could go, hold on. I didn't call you to do this. Turn around, go back to camp.

Mike Dsane
00:42:51.829 - 00:43:23.551
Yeah. So good. Yeah. That wisdom to be courageous but not reckless and slow down.

Because I think sometimes, especially if you're that pioneer, I can see way down the road personality, you know, I'm the type of person that's like, why follow the steps of the recipe? Like, I know what the end result I want. And step number three is make or break. And so that staged process is really important.

I think that community is really important. He didn't do it alone.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:43:23.703 - 00:43:46.201
Yeah. And his communication with God over it.

In fact, seeing how close Jonathan is to walking with God here and how faithful he is, I'm not surprised that when he met David, that they became fast friends. That the scripture says the Holy Spirit just kind of bound their souls together.

Mike Dsane
00:43:46.273 - 00:43:47.593
Yeah, yeah. So good.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:43:47.689 - 00:43:48.761
They knit their souls together.

Mike Dsane
00:43:48.793 - 00:45:02.521
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So good. And then I think the last thing that I really think is such an important thing is the courage. And I don't mean this, like, theologically.

I don't necessarily mean this in a kind of rebellious way, but the courage to be different than the context around you.

So sometimes I think there's a danger in feeling like the Lord's calling me to something that might be slightly different or completely different than Saul and all these other. Who were. Like, there was. The ephod was meant for the person to go in the presence of the Lord and hear from the Lord and report back to the people.

And Ahijah wasn't using it. Or if he was using it, he wasn't hearing from the Lord. And Jonathan, it's like, man, I don't have all the answers, but I think the Lord's in this.

Let me try. And I think sometimes that there's constructive disruption and there's destructive disruption.

And to be a constructive disruption in the context around you as the Lord leads, right?

Not just because you want change, because of preference, sake, I think that's really, really important to understand that because I think the people that the Lord trusts with that aren't people who just want to throw things on its head just because.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:45:02.633 - 00:45:04.905
Well, this has been a really great conversation.

Mike Dsane
00:45:05.025 - 00:45:05.689
It's been fun.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:45:05.777 - 00:45:09.625
I look forward to the reaction as we release this to our audience.

Mike Dsane
00:45:09.745 - 00:45:17.641
Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for letting me spin yarn around an armor bearer and Jonathan and for Samuel 14.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:45:17.753 - 00:45:20.281
And thank you very much for coming on to Eternal Impact.

Mike Dsane
00:45:20.393 - 00:45:21.569
Love it. Thank you.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser
00:45:21.697 - 00:46:20.145
Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Eternal Impact. And a huge shout out to Mike Johnny for sharing his story with us and walking us through the faith of the armor bearer.

To find out more about Mike and Kings harbor church, please visit kingsharbor.org Our next episode is all about Habakkuk and clinging to the Father as we talk to Mickey Stoneier, Executive Pastor at Rock Church in San Diego.

The episode will also commemorate the anniversary of the September 11th terrorist attack, as our guest is also a law enforcement chaplain and was at Ground Zero in the immediate aftermath. If this conversation has encouraged you, make sure to follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and share this episode with your friends.

For more information or to join our email newsletter, visit our website at EternalImpact show until next episode, I am Aaron Matthew Kaiser and this is Eternal Impact.